Henry Agnew and Mary Molloy/Milloy

Lyn

Had son John Agnew and perhaps daughter Mary Ann who is buried Dundee Scotland.
John Agnew came to Australia.
John Agnew marriage certificate in Australia says from Londonderry.

I have not found Henry and Mary. Word of mouth from John's descendants in Australia says Magherafelt. There are so many Henry Agnews.
Does anybody have information on Henry and Mary please?
I did spend weeks in North Ireland 2019. Stayed with friend at Dungiven.
Lyn

Elwyn

Some dates of birth and death would help with this query.

I looked on Ancestry and there are over 20 trees with what appears to be this family but I have doubts about their accuracy. The Treatt tree has Henry dying on 13th Sept 1863 in Co. Londonderry. A wife Rose reportedly died in 1851 and another wife Mary Milloy in 1882 in Groomsport Co. Down (which seems rather far away from Londonderry for a farmer’s wife to die. They generally died at home). However that Henry left a will (viewable on the PRONI website) which states his wife’s name was Lettitia and that he had a son Patrick. (The on-line trees make no mention of a son Patrick or of Lettitia). Abstract here:

Letters of Administration (with the Will annexed) of the personal estate of Henry Agnew late of Ballynease in the County of Londonderry Farmer deceased who died 13 September 1863 at same place were granted at Londonderry to Patrick Agnew of Portglenone in the County of Antrim Grocer the Son and one of the next of kin of said deceased.

Henry clearly couldn’t have had 2 wives both alive in 1863 so something’s wrong there. Have you found the Dundee death certificate for Mary Ann? If she died 1855 onwards the cert should tell you both parents names, their occupations and whether they were alive or dead at that date. That might help you.

I would not rely on the Ancestry trees very much. They do not look reliable to me.

Lyn

Thanks for your, response.
I agree with your comments. If only I had some dates! And a marriage. And a birth record for John. I also saw the 2 wives story etc. John Agnew son birth? 1840/1841. Who knows.

I have struggled for a long time to find Henry and Mary. My mother and mother of my cousin both said Magherafelt. So much so that I went there 2019. They are not in Bellaghy cemetery. Many Agnews there.

There is a grave at Bangor Henry Agnew and Mary. In newspaper notice of her funeral "of Groomsport relic of Henry". But her will made no connection that I could see. Unknown people to me inheriting.

I have not yet looked for the death certificate for the Mary Ann who married Payne. She was Londonderry. I shall do that. I spent time in Scotland 2019. . Probably a dead end.

Sorry to sound defeated. But I have spent a lot of time searching today again. There are many Henry Agnews.
Lyn

Elwyn

To save you a bit of time, Mary Ann Payne’s death certificate records her as a widow, ur 62 Princes St Dundee. Died of apoplexy 6th Feb 1899. She was 57 (so born c 1841/2). Parents were Henry Agnew (labourer) deceased and Mary Molloy (dcd).

That gets you back to the birth of Patrick Payne on 18.7.1866 in Dundee. His birth cert records his parents John Payne & Mary Ann Agnew as having married on 12th Oct 1860 in Co. Derry. John Payne was dead by July 1866. Can't see a death for him though which is disappointing as his parents names could be a lead. Patrick Payne married Catherine McDonald in 1902 in Dundee and died there 12.12.1934. (Possibly may have living descendants. Didn’t check). Catherine died in Dundee in 1906.

Unfortunately I can’t find a marriage for John & Mary Ann in the statutory marriage records or pre 1864 RC church records that fits. I tried 5 years either side.

But it does seem to tell you that she was the offspring of Henry Agnew and Mary Molloy (both dead by 1899), and that she almost certainly came from Co. Derry/Londonderry and was born c 1841/2. Also that her father was a labourer (not a farmer) so the Henry in the family trees I mentioned from Ballynease is almost certainly not her father.

You could look at the Scottish censuses for Dundee St Andrew district 1881 & 1891 to see what places of birth are shown for the parents. They may be in the 1871 too but can’t immediately see them.

John Payne & Mary Ann Agnew had another son John Joseph Payne who was born c 1861 in Ireland (acc to the 1911 census). So that fits with the parents marrying in 1860. John Joseph Payne married Margaret Carleton on 8th June 1885 in Dundee and died 17.2.1920 in Dundee. Birth registration started in Ireland in 1864 so it won’t be possible to trace one for John Joseph. What denomination were the family, do you know?

Elwyn

Lyn

Thank you so much. Shall read your insights again tomorrow. Midnight here.
Yes! I found Mary Ann Payne death on Scotland's People. Mother Mary Molloy. I had a. "gut" feeling about her in 2024. Maybe because her first name was Mary.. And the Londonderry fitted.

2024, I had to move off to my Dad's side (Smith, Monaghan) ancestry because reunion suddenly scheduled.
Now I need to know her father and a brother John.

Lyn

It seems you did not get my last message about denominations. I suspect Mary Molloy native Irish Catholic.
Henry Agnew I pondered.
Native Irish, or came across from Scotland, or part of plantations.
I really do not know about him

Elwyn

Lyn,

Molloy would be a native Irish name, and so probably was Agnew (some sources say it is a Norman name). So I would expect them to have both been Catholic. But I wanted to check.

Marriages were entered into the statutory records in Ireland from 1845 onwards, save for Catholic marriages, which were not included until 1864. This couple told the Registrar in Dundee that they married in Co Derry in 1860. I have searched the statutory records and can’t see that marriage which points to it being Catholic (or to them not actually having married at all, and just made a date up).

RC marriage records are mostly on-line on various sites (Ancestry, fmp and the National Library, Dublin) but not every parish has records for the 1860s and some have been lost or overlooked when they were filmed. As an example, the RC parish of Dungiven in Co. Derry has marriage records starting in 1825 but there’s a gap from 1834 to 1864, so if your couple married there, you won’t find any record). I searched the set on Ancestry and did not find the marriage, anywhere in Ireland.

I would check the Scottish censuses in case the couple put an exact place of birth in. Usually they just put Ireland but you do sometimes see a parish or a townland.

The only other thing I can think of is focussing on the surname Payne. It is not a common name in Co. Derry. In the 1831 census there were only about 6 families in the county. You might want to search the relevant RC parish records on the NLI site in case you find the marriage and it has been overlooked or mis-spelled in other sources. With a specific date to check, going through 6 or 7 sets of records should not take too long. And if a likely parish has a gap in its marriage records around 1860 that could be a clue. The 1831 Co. Derry census lists Payne households in the civil parishes of Drumachose, Tamlaghtard, Desertmartin, Kilcronaghan & Templemore. Folk tended to marry locally so you would hope that the Agnew family lived nearby, ideally in the same parish. The 1831 census has Agnew families in Drumachose & Desertmartin, so they might be worth checking first.

Possibly DNA testing may be a way of matching with others who have additional information about where the family originate. Family Tree DNA reportedly has more people with Ulster roots than any other company. That obviously increases the chances of finding a match. You might want to try them or, if you have already tested, you can transfer your results for no fee.

The North of Ireland Family History Society is running an Ulster DNA project and can offer FTDNA testing kits at a reduced price. http://www.nifhs.org (Go to DNA project on the website).